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<  Game Play  ~  The imbalances of pvp.

Ferni
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:20 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 230
First off I just want to say that this is purely educated opinion from experience with pvp in terramud and the way pvp works in other games. This opinion has come from comparing mud pvp to I guess, many forms of 3D game pvp which also has many forms whether its RTS, FPS, RPG and Pokemon (which has a genre of its own). Many of these forms of pvp have critical balance decisions to prevent it from becoming a broken pvp or competitive system. I know that it may not matter but it is interesting to look at pvp, which is dormant and probably forever will be, from a balance perspective.

While problems with pvp in mud are like... the last thing you should worry about i just feel I need to give my take on it. Please do not tell me that mud is not this other game, I am using other games to validate my conclusions and to compare them with mud. Although I will not go into any other games mechanics for pvp.


From experience in pvp battles I will start of with this one magical room where no one can hurt eachother and is the most camped out of spot in all of gaming history. Sickbay.

Not one pvp battle in mud has not occured outside of sickbay, ppj or tennysons sickbay. The existence of these no attack and fast ticking/healing rooms just breaks pvp in freaking half. If you are in danger of dying, just hit 'go sickbay'. Its as simple as that. Further more, should you die in battle, look at where you respawn. This is one reason why the arenas are never used.

But even class mechanics are broken as well. From experience I think it goes like this. (----> = beats)

Barbarian (Fighter included) ----> Assassin (maybe Thief but debatable due to significantly lower backstab damage) ----> Mage ----> everything else.

The Barbarian just needs to be a bash whore and gg. Although he is vulnerable, I have witnessed, and tried myself a barbarian bashing 2 people at once. It is wierd that you can only bash a monster once and bash another player over and over again.

The Assassin can backstab for 70+ damage. I have seen 86 even. Not many characters around mid-level have that much hp. The most broken thing about backstabbing in pvp is that you can hide, and still be hidden after you are hit by your enemy, and you can hide as your enemy is attacking you. So you just need to go hide, backstab, hide, backstab.

The Mage can cast spells upwards of 30+ damage every 3 seconds. Fairly simple. Although it can stun it is pretty wierd how it works and have not tested or seen much use by players in pvp so far.

Every other character except maybe cleric, bard or the other casters are just totally outclassed by these 3.

Other bad things is that weapon hitting has a 7 second delay, which is why the Barbarian practically needs to use bash to succeed. Or you can use insta-crits but those are too valuable for player vs monster playing.

If you compare this to the ultra-fun bloodfest of a Terrawar, a Barbarian is the most unfavored class to play since bashing takes a long time to kill someone. Just look at the classes that have won the Terrawar most in the past. Mages and Assassins. Surprising Fighter has won twice and Assassin only once. But it seems that Mage is the most popular.

PS: I do ackknowledge that the Monk may have a place in the pvp heirarchy. Gecko has beaten my cleric once in the Arenas if I remember correctly.

It was also lol when Tinpan touched someone and actually killed him.
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Ferni
Posted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 11:24 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 230
Im sorry if this sounded nerdy and it is a pretty insignificant problem atm that I have no need to be fixed, I just felt it was a good discussion topic.
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Ferni
Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:37 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 230
You're right, which is why if mazil was correct pkilling was brought in by popular demand. Right now I see no need at all of being chaotic unless I am rescuing someone else from tormnet which end up becoming one of those bloodfests outside sickbay where other people join in. Its fun when it is on both players terms but is a total nuiscance when not. I should have chosen lawful ages ago so I wouldnt have to put up with one guy hassling me, because thats all people do and all pkilling is used for.

PS: Please don't anyone take this as whining because there is nothing to whine about. And I may be wrong that pkilling was actually introduced after the games release and I excersize no need of having that changed.
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Ferni
Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 6:44 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 230
I also don't want this thread to be derailed to talking about why pkilling is annoying. The intention of this thread is to discuss its imbalances, hence the title.
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Swampy
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:55 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 247
Sigh, ferni man i hope you don't feel like i'm picking on you these days, i always seem to argue with your posts, it's nothing personal man it's just we have some differeing opinions. Anyways...

ok first up, minor thing while a lot of good natured pvp does take place outside tick rooms, the best pkillers regularly strike at perms and traffic spots rather than these rather predictable areas. Several times i have lain in wait at a common perm for my victim to come along. (though i think this is frowned upon these days)

Secondly, barbs are not taht invincible. Bash does minimal damage and relies heavily on a level advantage to be successful (i think)? missing just once or twice will create a gap to either escape or stun cast cast cast from another calss.

third, obviously assassins and thieves are better pvpers than other classes. This is balanced by the fact that they are pretty rubbish solo characters and really lean a lot on their support character. If someones put in the effort to level a high level pkiller then they deserve to be able to dance around and own up pvp.

Also are there posts missing from this thread or something? i can only see your posts ferni but there seems to be the implication that there should have been other posts here?

Finally, to anyone getting camped by a pkiller outside sickbay, use your brains. Either homesick to your alliance room and just walk out, Stun them and then run. Use an instant crit weapon. ask your alliance for help. ctrl enter commands to dash past them real quick. leave your character logged in and go and have a sandwhich while they waste their time spamming bash character outside sickbay. If worst comes to the worst log out, wait ten minutes then log back in. Assuming equal brains i would argue that it is far easier to evade a pkiller than it is to actually pkill someone

*hugs ferni*

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Ferni
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 8:53 am Reply with quote
Member Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 230
Thanks for the reply Bruce. Yeah i think someone did post but they deleted it which is unusual.

Good to see that you find pkilling fun. But a few things could be changed to make it balanced (not sure if thats the right term tbh). I do not understand why there is a 7 second cooldown on the regular attacks. They are so much weaker than spells and they still have that stupid drawback. You can say that spells drawback is the mp and that you can only cast so many spells, but they are very powerful on a player verse player scale and they can not miss at all. A class like the ranger is handicaped this way, sure it might have the mp to cast spells but most rangers with decent stats will have neutral intel and a mage with +3 intel will do 5 more points of damage usually.

I'm sorry if I came across as saying the pkilling is bad and not fun. Yes it is fun but mostly when it is at the right time and place and it can be funner if some minor things are changed.
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Swampy
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:04 pm Reply with quote
Member Joined: 22 Dec 2007 Posts: 247
Allright, yes i'm not sure why there is a 7 second hit time, i think it is to minimise crit weapons. Yes it is strange.

But realistically 5 points less damage on a 50+ damage blood boil is a small thing. To balance it out mages have less hp than all the other clases. And every class (besides maybe fighters and barbs) should have enough mp to have decent casts (assuming they raised their proficancies). I would like to see more hitting in pkilling but as is, i think it is fairly balanced assuming people are smart enough to work out that casting bloodboil has the potential to more damage than hitting someone with a sword (assuming not an insta-crit sword.)

Sure some classes will cast slower and we just ahve to accept that intrinsically some classses will be better at pvp than others and there is NO game that i have ever played where this is not the case.

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